Why do you want to stop selling and start closing and Starting an Online Business ?
You see, most people, they don’t know how to communicate.
Fewer people know how to sell and almost no one knows how to close.
There’s a very big difference between selling and closing.
You see in any sales conversation, in any sales environment, in any sales meeting, you do not get paid by selling.
How many of you know people who just sell sell sell sell and they don’t get paid? Or they turn off their prospects.
You only get paid when you close a sale.
I want you to think about the difference between a salesperson versus a closer.
You see a sales person, they would push.
They would use aggressive tactics.
When you think of a traditional sales person, what comes to mind? Comment below.
It’s snake oil, it’s scammy, it’s slimy, it’s pushy.
Versus a closer.
How do you know when you are a good closer? After you’ve done a sale, after you’ve closed a prospect, when your prospect says, “Thank you.
” “Thank you for helping me make this decision.
” “Thank you for helping me move forward.
” That’s when you know you are a good closer.
There’s a big difference, sales person and a closer.
You see today I want to teach you something very very critical.
Why you should stop selling and start closing client deals, and what is the most powerful way that I know of to close, and it’s not what you think.
Today I’m going to teach you what I call “Value in advance” Write it down.
The formula is called “Value in advance.
” Now, you can see on my social media I have millions and millions of followers, and every single time when I make an offer, when I sell, when I try to close a sale, instead of waiting for the phone call or waiting for the meeting, face to face to do all your closing clients, that is very difficult, because you only have a very short period of time to persuade, convince a prospect to say yes.
Instead I believe what you need to do, you need to do a lot of work, before you even open up your mouth.
A lot of work needs to be done before you even say a single word.
In one of my previous videos, I talk about this.
The best way to sell a box of chocolate is what? Is to give people a taste.
One piece of chocolate, if they like that they’ll want to buy the whole box.
It’s exactly the same in closing.
I don’t want to count on closing, that closing part, that conversion part, that face to face, on the phone part, to do all the heavy lifting.
I want to start closing way in advance, and the best way to do that is “Value in advance.
” How can I provide value to someone in advance?
For someone who is consuming my materials, watching my video, consuming my content.
When I release something, when I make an offer, the trust is already there.
That it’s easy for them to say “Yes.
” Let me give you a perfect example.
Let’s say you are a martial artist, and you are teaching someone how to be a black belt, and of course you’re not going to be a black belt over night.
There are a series of steps you need to go through in order to attain your black belt.
Lets say the very first step is you need to learn how to do a proper stance.
Okay, that the first step, and then you need to have some basic flexibility with Starting an Online Business.
How to do stretching, stretching exercise, and then basic punching technique, and then basic kicking technique.
Lets say and then you learn some jumping kicking technique.
Then later on you also have power and speed, endurance.
Lets say it takes you seven steps to get from point A to point B, you with me? The best way I could convince someone to say, hey I’m the guy that can teach you how to be a powerful human weapon, how to be that confident black belt.
How to Start a Digital Marketing Agency in 2019 [SMMA]
Instead of telling you how good I am, I know it takes you seven steps to get to your goal.
All I need to do is provide value in advance.
Let me teach you through my content how to do a proper stance.
Let me get you to that first step.
I’m not going to get you to the end goal, but I’m going to get you to the first step.
I might even teach you some basic stretching exercise that you can do from the comfort of your own home.
To help you become more flexible, to get you to almost step two.
Now what happens is this.
That if I am the person that gets you from point A and then point B.
Not to the end goal yet, but you’re already getting value from the free information, the free value I’m providing, and what the prospect is thinking is this, “Wow, If I’m getting so much value from the free stuff, if the free stuff is this good, I wonder what the pay-stuff is going to be like” and that’s exactly how the “Value in advance” formula works.
You don’t wait till when the money takes place, the transaction takes place to start closing.
You started closing from the beginning.
When you’re delivering value to the marketplace.
You provide so much value in advance when you make an offer your prospect is like this is a no brainer.
MY SOCIAL MEDIA MARKETING AGENCY | DailyVee 204
Of course I want to buy.
I’m already getting so much value.
You’ve helped me solve the first two step problem.
I know I have five more steps to go.
Of course you are the man, you’re the woman, you’re the company I want to go with.
Instead of trying to convince them, you don’t know me, you don’t like me, you don’t trust me, give me some money.
No! Give them some value upfront.
Help them solve some problems upfront.
When you do that through social media, through video, through education, through content, that’s a smart way to do it.
You can do this on a massive scale.
You’re impacting so many peoples lives, and you’re adding so much value to people’s lives.
When you make an offer, it’s easy.
When you do make an offer, then it is just a moment when you realize all the hard work you’ve done in he beginning.
You’re not selling selling selling, trying to use some gimmicks or techniques or whatever tricks trying to close people, and there’s a time and place for that, but you don’t need that.
I bet I have so many students, if you’re watching this comment below.
You’ve gotten so much value from my free content, and then by the time I make an offer you’re like Dan is the guy, of courseI want to learn from him.
I want him to be my mentor.
Why? Because, I’ve done so much.
I combine and I strive to combine my branding, my education, my marketing and closing all as one thing.
Instead of isolated components,I treat them as one.
I strive to get to a point where it’s automatic closing.
Where the closing is natural.
Where it’s not forceful.
That people are happy to be closed.
That’s exactly why you need to stop selling and start closing Starting an Online Business.
I’ll teach you one more thing before we go, and that is this, every single time you offer something, every single time you make an offer, you want to strive to deliver 10x more value.
Meaning this, this is what I truly believe, it is my mode in business.
If you sell something for $100, what can you do to strive to deliver 10x more value? That’s $1000 worth of value, when you charge $100.
When you can do that it’s easy.
It’s easy to close.
because people can see the value.
It’s a no brainer that they want to buy.
They are happy to buy from you, because they can see how much value you are delivering.
I want you to think about this.
How can you implement “Value in advance” in your business? How can you deliver 10x more value?
What can you do?
I want to leave you with one thought, and that is this, closing is not something that you do for somebody.
Closing is something that you do for somebody.
How to Build, Grow, and Scale Your Own Starting an Online Business:
- Hey, what's up everyone? Adam LaRoche here from Viewership.
We have Neil Patel here for Q&A Thursdays where basically we gothrough all of your comments, we find the most relevant ones, and I'm gonna ask them to Neiland really pick his brain, and get all the good stuffthat you want to hear from him.
- So, well first off, thankyou for leaving comments.
The more comments youguys leave on my videos, we're gonna end up using them, and then make sure we answerthem in future videos.
We're going to be doing a Q&Aeach and every single week, going after the most-askedquestions in marketing.
So the ones that get up-voted the most, those are the ones thatwe're gonna answer.
So if you see a comment, and you like it, up-vote it if you want the answer to it.
Or, if you have your own question, make sure you leave acomment with your question, and we may consider it forour next week's Q&A video.
- Leave that right there below.
So this one's from Boost ORM: "Hi Neil, I want tostart my own SEO agency.
"I have some clients alsoright now, but I'm not sure "I will get more clients in the future.
"Please tell me what I can do.
" - All right, so, here's what I would do.
And I was in this position.
When I first started an SEO agency, and people, nowadays, "Oh,Neil, you're well-known.
"It's so easy for you.
" But when I was startingout, I was a little kid.
16 years old, and when you're 16, who wants to give money to a 16-year-old? Two, I didn't have money.
Three, I didn't have a college degree.
Four, I didn't have any experience.
It was really tough.
And I could even give youa number five, or six, or whatever we're on.
The next one would be,I would go to school from 8 a.
to roughly 2o'clock in the afternoon.
So customers would be like,"Wait, you can only work "on my account for two,three hours a day?" I'm like, "No, no, I'll worknights and weekends as well.
" And I still made an SEO agency work.
When I was a little kid I got well into the six figures per month,and this was in high school.
And I know at 16, I cappedout at around $20,000 a month.
And then I grew from there.
And I'm not trying tobrag, I'm just trying to prove a point that if I could do it when I was 16, anyone can do it.
- That's the first thingsomeone needs to know.
If you want to anagency, and you guys want to go and createsomething, don't be afraid.
- Just believe in yourself.
- Exactly, just believe in yourself.
The second thing is, theway I used to get clients, and this still works today, I would go find outwho's doing a ton of ads on Google AdWords, and back in the day there weren't tools like there are now, but if you go to SEMrush, andyou put in the company URL, it will even tell you how much money they're spending each month.
That'll give you idea of howmuch money a company has.
Because if they spend $500,000a month or $1 million, or $200,000, there's a good chance they could pay you for SEO.
You don't want to goafter the ones who spend a half a million or a million a month because those guys are big organizations.
It's gonna be too hardto find the right people to go out there and sell.
You want to go after theones who are spending 20, 30 grand a month.
Hit up the founder, and shoot an email that goes something like this, right? Now that you've figuredout who to go after, the third step wouldbe you create an email and you send it off to them.
And it could be something like, "Hey John, I noticed that you're "spending a lot on Google AdWords, "what if I can end up getting you "a similar amount of traffic "from the same key words without "spending money on paid ads? "Would that interest you?" Yeah, a lot of CEOs will ignore you, but I send you that and you'respending 30 grand a month, what would you say? - Done.
- Or at least you'll get on the phone.
You may not hire, but you'llget on the phone with me.
- Well, I think that's the thing, is most people think youhave to focus on inbound, and no one's doing the outreach.
No one's doing the outbound.
- No, they're all lazy.
And it's easier to get them from outbound than inbound because theproblem with inbound is, like we generate right now around 5,000 consulting leads a month.
Almost 90-somethingpercent are not qualified.
- And that's the problem youend up with with inbound.
Outbound you can have 100% qualify because you're reaching out to the people that you know that can pay you.
Another strategy that Ilove using is Crunchbase.
So I go on Crunchbase.
They list out all the companiesthat are recently funded, their valuations, howmuch money they raise.
When these companiesraise $4 or $5 million, and you hit them upand their investors up, you always want to hit up their investors because if you invested in a company and someone emailed you saying like, "Hey, this company youinvested in is screwing up.
" What are you gonna do? - Uhhhh.
- Yeah, you want that RIO, right? So I would find all thecompanies that recently raised money, and I would email them.
I did this when I was a kid to Michael Moritz of Sequoia Capital.
And one of the companies he invested in.
And I emailed both of them and I'm like, "Hey, I know you guys are busy, "but this company is screwing up, "and you guys aren't gonna do well.
"And here's what's wrong and here's why "you're not gonna succeedwhen it comes to SEO "and getting Google traffic anddominated and grow as fast.
" Investors never wanna hear that.
- And you know they're gonnaforward the email over.
I would email themseparately, not together.
What ended up happening was, these guys would get an email from their board of directors and they would be like, "Oh, go figure this out.
" The investor's not gonnaspend any time or energy solving the problem, butthey're gonna be like, "Oh, go check this out.
" And when they tell the personwho's running that company.
You know they're gonna go check you out.
And I got a lot of deals that way because those guys were like, "Whoa, whoa, you justbroke down in a six-page "Word document ofeverything that was wrong.
" It was a fancy PDF.
I didn't hold things back,I just gave it all to them.
If you have $5 million, would you try and learnthings on your own, or would you just pay theperson who just outlined everything for you? - Just pay it.
- Exactly, especially ifit's not that expensive.
You want to charge 5grand a month for someone who raised $50 million or $5 million? They don't care, it'sa drop in the bucket.
And the genius part about this is you didn't go for the marketing director, or even the CEO of the company, you went to the people whowere funding those people.
- That's right.
- So it's like, (laughs)just guaranteed money, right? - That's right.
And if youdo well for those investors, they're gonna tell alltheir portfolio companies "Hey, this guy did thisfor one of my investments.
"You should hire himfor your business, too.
" And that's a great way to get clients.
- All right, so there we have it.
That is how to start anSEO agency, like Neil said.
Leave that comment down there below.
We're gonna be doing this Q&A Thursdays.
We're gonna be goingthrough your comments, and be able to respond to them, and be able to answer them in this format.
So if you enjoyed this, give it a Like.
Give it a Subscribe on YouTube.
And, of course, leave that comment for us.
- And we appreciate it.
Any time you guys need helpwith anything marketing-related, whether starting an agencyor you're a founder, or entrepreneur ormarketer, or just anyone who's interested ingetting into the field, I don't care what your qualifications are, how much money you have, we're here to help, so feelfree to leave a comment.
Even if it doesn't get any up-votes, we truly care, and you'regonna see a response from me trying to help you out.
I'll do the best that I can.
So thank you.
- See you next Thursday.
Pricing Digital Marketing Services for Your Agency in 2019 [COMPLETE GUIDE]
CHRIS: Oh, we're on! Hey guys! Welcome back to the process.
I'm Chris and.
JOSE: I'm Jose Caballer.
CHRIS: We took a little break.
Usually, we're talking to guests but by popular demand we're back and we're in front of you.
CHRIS: No guest today, and we have a really juicy topic.
Jose, tell the kids what the topic's about.
JOSE: We're talking about the proposal.
CHRIS: A proposal.
JOSE: Yea CHRIS: And the reason we're bringing this topic up is there's been some questions from some of our members.
And it's a good topic because in order for you to get any kind of real job, not as a freelancer but as a person who's coming up in the world.
You gotta put a proposal together and there are different styles from motion to digital, and.
JOSE: This is something you're gonna have to do a lot, basically.
CHRIS: Yes, and there are different styles so today we're gonna share that with you so stick around! CHRIS: Wooo! Yeeaa! (Clapping) JOSE: You're watching the process.
Those titles look very nice.
JOSE: We look professional CHRIS: We're working on it.
JOSE: We're still doing them, so that's good.
CHRIS: It's a work in progress and you guys will see it change.
Maybe even this backdrop will change.
CHRIS: Exciting things for us in the future.
JOSE: That's all coming.
That's all coming.
Let's get into our topic.
So, can you the title card here, Tai.
On my laptop.
So, we're gonna be talking about proposals, A.
A Bids, A.
A estimates, A.
CHRIS: They're all a little bit different and we're gonna do it in 3 segments.
CHRIS: We're gonna talk about: What is it? We're gonna break it down and give you some examples of that.
CHRIS: And a new thing that we're introducing to the show called the Dorktionar.
JOSE: Yeah! CHRIS: That's a very creative title by Mr Caballer standing to my right.
JOSE: A lot of dorky terms in the 'bidness.
' CHRIS: 'Bidness.
' JOSE: In the 'bidness!' The 'bidness' of design! JOSE: Desiiign (Laughter) JOSE: Desiiigners.
We're gonna do some business.
CHRIS: You gotta hold your pinky up when you say that.
JOSE: Designers CHRIS: Alright.
So let's talk about what it is.
JOSE: So, I like that you put it into this order: Bid, proposal, pitch because sometimes that is what it comes in.
JOSE: And you know, bid means something in motion graphics.
CHRIS: What does it mean in digital? JOSE: But really, ultimately in means that your putting a price; an amount.
JOSE: You're bidding.
You know, like an auction.
You're bidding, right? CHRIS: Yea JOSE: It's really an estimate, or a price.
CHRIS: It's time and materials.
JOSE: Time and materials.
CHRIS: Time and materials.
And when I first got started in the motion world, it was kind of a roll the dice.
CHRIS: I kind of made things up.
I didn't know what my expenses were; What we considered out cost of goods sold.
CHRIS: And so I would just put a number together.
CHRIS: And I would make a lot of assumptions.
JOSE: Pull it out of your arse, like the British would say.
It's like BOOM here's a bid.
CHRIS: A bid.
It's basically time and materials and it's a best shot guess.
JOSE: So, we still do that and it's called--In poker I think it's called betting in the dark.
CHRIS: Betting in the dark.
JOSE: Like you don't really know what the cards are.
CHRIS: Well, let's explain that.
JOSE: Let's explain that.
CHRIS: If you're playing Texas hold em', you have 5 cards, but before any cards are dealt, you're making a bet.
CHRIS: And that's kind of akin to putting together a bid without knowing what the scope of the project is and all the variables that come in to play.
CHRIS: It's a risky maneuver.
JOSE: It's a risk, for sure.
Because you might draw a 2 7 offsuit, which is the worst possible hand in Texas hold em'.
JOSE: I have no idea what you just said.
I have never played poker.
CHRIS: That's okay.
All of my Asian gamblers out there in the universe, they'll know exactly what I'm talking about.
CHRIS: 2 7 offsuit is the worst hand you can get and if you put in your entire amount, you're now what they would consider now potted in.
CHRIS: You're putting enough into the pot that you're going to fall over.
JOSE: Ok, Ok.
CHRIS: That's enough poker JOSE: I get it.
So the thing we were talking about today earlier with Nicole was this issue of the perrogative of who it is.
JOSE: If you're a freelancer versus if you're an agency principal.
CHRIS: Yep JOSE: So as an agency principal you have.
CHRIS: Did you call me a 'pimpcipal?' (laughter) JOSE: A 'pimpcipal' CHRIS: Let's.
Wait JOSE: That's a pimp-cipal.
CHRIS: I'm gonna add that into the dorktionary.
JOSE: It's kind of like a popsicle but it's a pimp.
JOSE: Is that what I said? CHRIS: Pimpcipal CHRIS: You're the head pimp.
CHRIS: Alright let's go.
JOSE: Alright so the point is: Nicole asked about the point of view from a freelance point of view JOSE: and then we were talking about it from the point of view--I'm talking about it from corporate.
JOSE: and you're talking about it from a motion point of view so she didn't really.
JOSE: get her point of view.
Does that make sense? CHRIS: Let's focus on what we have.
CHRIS AND JOSE: Foooocus CHRIS: Alright so that was the bid.
The bid is time and materials.
CHRIS: The proposal is a more corporate document and it has time and materials in it.
It has a broader definition of the scope.
CHRIS: It has some kind of sales material included.
A corporate bio, who you are, work you've done.
JOSE: It also has an approach a process.
JOSE: You outline your entire process and how you're gonna do it.
CHRIS: Tell me a little bit more about the approach.
That's a term I'm not familiar with.
JOSE: The reason why proposals--in my neck of the woods in the world--are so much more is assuming that you're not presenting it to an individual.
JOSE: You're presenting it to a group of people.
JOSE: To an executive stakeholder group, to a body, to a committee, to somebody that is not just one person.
JOSE: There might be one person who's driving that on their end, but they have to presenting it to their ceo, to their marketing person, to the CFO.
CHRIS: CTO JOSE: A lot of people need to look at it.
They're just gonna look at the thing they care.
So the CFO is just gonna look at the price.
JOSE: The CEO wants to look at the results.
The CMO wants to look at the process.
Like what is it.
JOSE: They don't want to feel not included in the solution because they've been spending all this other time and money and effort and their job is to make sure they guide the approach.
JOSE: So you're basically trying to make sure that everybody's in alignment.
CHRIS: So let me summarize there.
CHRIS: You're proposal, especially in the digital world, is a self contained document that pretty much onboards them through the entire process of how you work, the timeline, deliverables, all that kind of stuff because there are multiple stakeholders; Multiple people that need to look at it for different reasons.
JOSE: Yea CHRIS: What we called is--If you want to build a connection with somebody you're familar with this term.
It's called match and mirror.
CHRIS: So in the corporate world this is what they're used to looking at so when you come in and you look like an odd duck, people get a little nervous.
So you want to adopt their language, their way of presenting, the way the talk about things and you're gonna have a much better shot of getting the work.
That's exactly why.
CHRIS: Alright, beautiful.
CHRIS: And Nicole, as always, if you have a question about what's said and it's not coming through clearly, just interupt us, okay? CHRIS: Let's talk about the pitch now.
So can you cut back to that slide, Tai? CHRIS: The pitch.
And the pitch sounds like another word, and I hate it.
JOSE: It's another definition.
The word pitch.
CHRIS: Son of a pitch.
JOSE: Isn't there a show? Son of a pitch.
CHRIS: There's a show.
It's called The Pitch.
CHRIS: The pitch implies another level of work.
Especially within the motion world.
I'm gonna talk about that a little bit.
CHRIS: I personally don't like pitches because pitches generally are unfunded.
It's competetive, right? So where as the bid may or may not have competititon, the pitch definitely implies there are multiple people going after the same amount of work.
CHRIS: Now if you're doing this for, say, a mom and pop, they would not ask you to do a pitch.
Their products are not big enough.
They do not know enough vendors, and they're going with somebody--A freind referral kind of thing.
JOSE: And in that case you're doing a bid.
CHRIS: You're doing a bid, and so when you're dealing with an agency or a much bigger organization for a brand that's well known they're almost always required to get 3 bids.
CHRIS: It's competetive bidding, and so you're looking at price points, but the worst part to the pitch is you have to come up with a creative solution that's going to convince your potential client that you're the right one to work with.
CHRIS: So let's assume that there are 3.
So they have option A Creative, option B, and option C, and theoretically it's all based off the same creative brief.
CHRIS: That's what we have to do, and we spend a lot of money making these things and they can include styleframes, full storyboards, motion tests, video tests.
So we're spending sometimes thousands into tens of thousands of dollars building these things for the hope of getting it.
The only reason we can do that is because the projects are big enough in scale.
JOSE: The reward is gonna be large enough, is what you're saying.
That it's worth it because you know you cannot win every single job so if you're losing so much money in the pitch and even when you win it If it can't pay for all the jobs you've lost, then you go out of business really fast.
And a lot of studios in our sector-- JOSE: have gone out of business.
CHRIS: They go out of business because they work like this and we are still mandated to work this way.
JOSE: I mean that happens a lot in agencies in digital and even in traditional.
Traditional design firms do pitch also.
I mean, everybody pitches in one way or the other.
So you described it fairly well that the pitch is we're there is creating involved.
In our case, at the very large end--I used to be brought in a lot as the boutique in a pitch against my larger competitors.
CHRIS: Oh, you're like the David and Goliath battle.
JOSE: They wanted to see how different of a solution would come in because in a pitch CHRIS: You're the wildcard.
JOSE: You're coming with creative.
So I remember pitching something really big against my biggest competitor where I used to work before.
*cough*Razorfish*cough* CHRIS: Don't mention them! JOSE: Don't mention names.
And we lost because the team liked us but the VP who had the hring decision, they didn' know who the hell we were compared to that other "R" firm.
But the point about that is if you guys are out there, if you're a freelancer, you probably won't get included in larger pitches.
If you're a small boutique agency, you will.
If you wanna make that transition, you will want to start knowing and learning how to put proposals together and how to pitch.
That's an important part of--I think we should do pitch competitions.
I think we should train-- CHRIS: No, because I hate pitches! JOSE: I love pitches! CHRIS: Don't talk about your personal life.
(laughter) JOSE: I loooove me some pitches! I Just finished pitching last week CHRIS: I told you distractions are not good for business.
JOSE: Yeah, focus on the business, not pitches.
No but you know what: Pitches actually get a lot of reward.
You get a lot out of pitches.
CHRIS: I hate pitches JOSE: Pitches are awesome.
CHRIS: If you read Blair Enns' book--and we're gonna do this in a different segment in the future called required reading, where Jose an I will talk about the books-- His like Win Without Pitching Manifesto.
I love the book.
He talks about it and eroding away your whole things.
JOSE: Totally agree with him.
What I mean about pitching is that I like the.
CHRIS: You like the excitement! JOSE: The startups and the excitement of the pitching and the competition.
CHRIS: He talks about all that.
JOSE: But fundamentally, you don't want to do too much of it.
CHRIS: You don't want to do it.
JOSE: Keep away from the pitches.
So anyways, here's the breakdown.
And if we can cut to slide--Thanks.
So there's an analogy here that we're gonna make to building a home, ok? When you're talking about building a home as a contractor you're talking about 5 key factors that determine the pricepoint and potentially the schedule, right? We're gonna talk about style, size, features, finishes, and time.
And the way I'm gonna talk about this first is I'll make the quick comparison to building a home and maybe you'll understand it that way and then we're gonna dive into what that means in the digital world and in the motion thing.
So first up is style.
Style I think of as: What kind of home are we building? Is it a post modern home, is it traditional, is it mediterranean, is it california condo? JOSE: Victorian.
Is it the new tiny house, you know? CHRIS: That's not a term.
Is it pre-fab? (Bantering) CHRIS: Because the style will then dictate a lot of the next steps.
Next thing that you're gonna talk about when building a home is the size.
How big of a home are we talking? JOSE: Size doesn't really matter.
CHRIS: Are we talking about a big mansion? Is it you know 5,000, 6,000--or a really well designed, efficient home in Japan or Europe.
Where we're seeing a 1200 sq.
home for a family of 4.
OFFSCREEN: What is the size of the home relative to? The type of customer? JOSE: We haven't talked about that yet.
CHRIS: We're just talking about architecture right now so that people can understand it.
JOSE: How much money they have.
CHRIS: Features: Is there going to be a pool? Is there going to be a two car garage? Is it going to have a sauna, bareque pit, a jacuzzi tub withing the master bedroom? Those are all the kinds of features that a home has to have and needs to be defined.
4th is the finishes.
Now the finishes is a tricky part because theres orders of magnitude here because you can go into Home Depot and buy a light for $10, $100, $1,000, or $10,000, or $100,000.
Maybe not Home Depot, but all of them will illuminate the room, right? JOSE: Totally.
CHRIS: But if you buy something like with crystals in it, it's gonna cost a lot more.
So the finishes, the flooring.
So is it lenoleum, which is very inexpensive, to some kind of hand scraped, wide plank wood.
The finishes affect the cost.
Lastly is the time.
JOSE: How long will it take? CHRIS: How long does it take? Alright, so let's jump in now.
So in the style part, Jose, why don't we talk about the style as it relates to digital.
JOSE: So this is specific to a music based website that asked us, you and I, to kind of put together a proposal.
And what I did is I put together some of the different styles from music related projects.
So here it wasn't necessarily about showing specific styles across--Well it does.
It shows styles across motion.
It shows styles across web, and it show's styles across actual exhibition design.
CHRIS: So you're pulling sample graphic references for what purpose? JOSE: For two purposes: To validate that we have experiences in the music business, but also to get a sense of: Hey, what style do you want this project to be in? CHRIS: Right, so you're reflecting back that you are hip to the music scene and you have good tastes and you've done things that are relevant.
CHRIS: Whats the next slide? JOSE: The next one is really important because it's not just about aesthetics when it comes to a project in the digital realm.
In this case, this is also the product architecture as it relates to a large site for an e-commerce kind of thing.
CHRIS: This is a complicated diagram.
JOSE: It's a complicated diagram CHRIS: What are you trying to show me? JOSE: It's actually a really simple diagram.
Basically it's showing the heirarchy of application.
This is one out of 3.
We showed them 3 options.
By application, it means by use.
So instead of making it by product which is most.
For example, Apple.
Com is by product.
The watch, the Mac, the Iphone.
It's a product centric company.
Application is for the home, for work, for.
CHRIS: Where it'll be used.
JOSE: Where it'll be used.
So we pitched--We showed them--This wasn't a pitch, this was in a discovery phase.
CHRIS: Now that you've defined the terms, be careful how you use them.
JOSE: This wasn't in a pitch this was in a discovery phase.
That brings up another slight nuiance that we're not gonna go into, but basically we said: You have 3 options.
They dictate your budget.
Or they determine--They will affect your budget.
And the two other options were by application, by product was the other one, and there was one more.
by customer! CHRIS: By customer.
JOSE: By customer type.
So we basically--Those were 3 styles of navigating the whole site.
So you can give them options of that case scenario of which way they want it to go.
JOSE: And ofcourse, being good clients, guess what they chose.
CHRIS: Which one? JOSE: All 3 (laughter) CHRIS: So much for that.
Alright, that was awesome.
Okay, we'll review that later, but I learned something today about how to do digital.
You can define it by product, by application, meaning where it will be used.
And then by the users.
Or all 3 as you said.
CHRIS: Alright, great.
So thanks, Nicole.
We're gonna jump into the motion world, okay? So in motion, style matters a lot more because the style, to me, determines really the approach that we're gonna take and the cost associated.
So I'm gonna show you a couple different styles.
So when you think of a motion company, a lot of people think of animation.
But sometimes it's just live action and now this is a very common thing now where we'll go out and shoot live action.
So the entire spot can be live action with pretty straight editorial.
So the next one I'm gonna show you is a project we did for Coldplay.
This is an interactive music video, so there's two components to this.
There's a component of coding and then there's--This is mostly animation, kind of cell driven animation with a couple of things.
And this is a totally different thing where it's completely graphic; Very iconic, flat, with just a little bit of texture.
And then moving on from that is a CG approach; Computer graphics approach.
Borderline kind of photoreal work, where there's 3 dimensional glasses Everything's modeled, painted, texture mapped.
It's a lot of stuff to build.
As you can see, it's very dense frame.
It's expensive to build.
Here's another one.
These are characters that we built, the motorcycles, rigged, hand animated.
Very heavy duty work.
CHRIS: So, these things tend to be very expensive to build.
CHRIS: And then there are hybrid approaches where you may have a product, in this case this is CG, and then you have motion design; Some 2D/3D component on top of it.
JOSE: On top of it CHRIS: Yea so this one, you know.
JOSE: I like this, it's nice.
CHRIS: It's a different approach.
It's a nice and clean look for MoFi.
And lastly here I have a music video, where it's a hybrid approach where there's 2D animation, but then there's also footage that we shot.
You see the hand in the background, placing the gazebo? That's just part of this shadow puppet world that we created.
So that's great.
Alright, so now let's talk about size.
So what does size mean to you in the digital world? JOSE: So size is not necessarily relevant to length and other things that you might have in your world CHRIS: Focus on yours JOSE: So, how many user stories, or how many use cases exist? Meaning if you're doing one simple use case that one person comes to the site and does xyz, that's a simpler site to build.
If you have many use cases; 5-7 use cases, then that really makes it a lot more complex.
CHRIS: Because it's denser? JOSE: Because here's the thing: It's not about feature amount, because you can have the same amount of features.
It's about feature depth.
And the depth.
DepTHHHHH CHRIS: Go JOSE: Is really about the user story.
How far, how much does the user get to do in experience? That's why they call it "user experience.
" CHRIS: Mmmm JOSE: And the mistake that you're gonna make, and that all people that start doing web and then come from another world, is that they confuse features with the depth of the functionality as it pertains to the use cases.
So they fail to do user stories because they don't understand user experience.
They pitch on features.
And then when they get into the doing, the client starts asking for all of these things and nuances within the feature of e-commerce.
CHRIS: You totally lost me, by the way.
But it's cool JOSE: I'll make it really simple.
CHRIS: Hold on, hold on.
You were talking about the mistake that people made.
You had me there.
That was the hook in my mouth.
Features versus depth.
CHRIS: And, Nicole, does that mean something to you? NICOLE: Yeah, actually, it does.
I understand the crux of what he's trying to say is that when you're presenting for these types of projects there's the feature itself and then how the feature is going to function from end to end for different types of people on the custom profiles that might be using this application.
Let's take Lyft.
You have a young entrepreneur.
What does the cycle look like from the time the individual calls for a driver to the time that they complete their ride.
That's an example of user story.
And he's saying that those get left out in a lot of instances when thinking about features for an application.
CHRIS: Is that right? JOSE: Here'es how you explain it--Yes, she got it right--Here's how you should explain it.
CHRIS: Don't give me crazy eyes.
Time out! Caaaaalm.
There wolf will be here.
JOSE: Hold on.
I'm giving you the "Oh my god these motion people don't understand this.
" So I need to make it metaphoric.
So the metaphoric is, and for the motion folks, imagine if you were to price out only on keyframes.
And you didn't actually think about how many frames were in between.
A deep user experience will have a lot of keyframes.
That's like a 60 frame per second animation.
Super high fidelity.
CHRIS: Oh, okay like versus a Sunday morning cartoon where they're animating on twos.
CHRIS: Every other frame is a.
NICOLE: So thinking it through more? JOSE: Yeah.
People sell 60 frame animation like super 4k.
CHRIS: I get it.
JOSE: for what should've been a.
(laughter) CHRIS: We're all good.
So cutting back to our graphic here.
So we're looking at one use case is cheaper to do.
Multiple use cases, 5-7, is going to be a lot more for you to factor.
It's gonna be a deeper site.
A sweet spot for you is something like the 3 uses cases.
That's something that's reasonable to me.
Alright, let's talk about it from a motion point of view: Length.
And we're talking about seconds of content, right? So if you're doing an animated end tag, that's going to be a few seconds long, 3 or 4 seconds long.
On the opposite side of that is like a documentary feature film, and we've done those too.
Those could be 90 minutes in length.
And our sweet spot, the thing that people come to us for is the 30-second TV commercial.
JOSE: Hold on, hold on.
I'm gonna correct you.
This is you're sweet spot in motion.
CHRIS: I'm talking about motion JOSE: Yeah, okay, but Blind's sweet spot--Actually we're doing a lot of web projects.
Don't call me the weird cousin.
CHRIS: We'll we're gonna chop it into two parts here so people--We need to segregate this: Motion and digital.
JOSE: Got it, got it.
CHRIS: Because these blended.
JOSE: What I want to make sure is that we are doing both.
CHRIS: These blended things are gonna confuse our audience, I think.
JOSE: They're not that--You guys are smart.
CHRIS: I'm not saying they're not smart.
JOSE: Yeah, whatever.
Keep on going with your length.
No we're done with length.
JOSE: Oh, features.
CHRIS: We're gonna talk about features now.
So let's talk about the requirements as they relate to digital.
When you're talking about features, remember the analogy to the house? JOSE: Why do I have to go first? CHRIS: There's a rhythm here: Digital, motion, digital, motion.
JOSE: I get it, I get it.
We should be first anyway.
CHRIS: "DigiMo" JOSE: What? CHRIS: Go.
You're up! JOSE: So okay, go back to your analogy about the house.
What were you gonna say? CHRIS: Oh the house! About the features.
Remember we talked about the 2-car garage, the 4-car garage, you want the stainless steel--Maybe that's into something else but.
CHRIS: Anyways what are the requirements of project? JOSE: I got it.
Okay, so the first is just whether there is big, broad functionality.
Like, is it an e-commerce site, or is it a marketing site, or is it a community building site? CHRIS: Or a content site.
JOSE: Or is it a content site? There's a lot of uhh.
CHRIS: Give an example of each.
What's an e-commerce site? JOSE: So an e-commerce site is that example taht I showed you earlier for.
CHRIS: Something everybody would know.
JOSE: You mean, like, out there? CHRIS: Yeah, out there.
JOSE: Ebay is an e-commerce site.
CHRIS: Anything where there's a financial transaction.
CHRIS: Okay, where you can buy--Etsy.
Give an example of a marketing site.
JOSE: A marketing site would be something like if you go to a large consultancy.
The site is pure marketing now.
But today, it's all about social media campaigns.
CHRIS: That's fine, let's focus.
JOSE: And it's all about social media ecosystem JOSE: Which by the way, is actually a really big issue in pricing in what we're talking about.
But let's keep on going.
JOSE: Let's bring that slide back.
So look, I'm gonna just go through these real fast.
Community, like is there a community? Can be social in this case scenario, too.
What are all the different things that you're gonna do out in the social ecosphere? Reviews, that's a site that might just be for you to review your products, etc.
Those three things are examples of what I was just saying.
Like specific functions of a site.
And all 3 of them actually might be part of a site.
CHRIS: Right JOSE: Blog! Again, does it have a blog? CHRIS: These are all the features that you need to know.
JOSE: The map--These are all the different things that the site might have.
And all of them on their own aren't necessarily large and complex.
You know, User profiles, or having custom profiles.
Meaning that you can register and you can maintain a picture and a profile of yourself.
Some sites have all of these.
Can-- JOSE: I'm done CHRIS: You done? Thanks.
So requirements for motion.
So we need to know things like: Is there a location that we have to travel to because those things are tied together? That means we're going to be using talent from abroad and we have to think about hotel and travel expenses, and dealing with logistics.
So if we're gonna shoot in another country, we have to hire a local production company to partner up with because they know how things are done there.
Is it a union shoot, meaning does the crew need to be union? Does the cast all have to be union? Because that drives the cost up.
Casting specs: Are we talking about one person that's mostly used as a moving model or they have a speaking role, or is there 20 or 30 principals in the spot, which will drive the price up? We need to know things about usage.
Is this a worldwide usage? Because there are contracts that have to be negotiated on behalf of the client.
Do we need special equipment? Are we gonna be flying in a helicopter? Is there gonna be a car chase? All those kinds of things.
And how complex is visual effects? Those are the requirements that we need to know.
Okay, moving on.
Finishes JOSE: So the finishes are like the last--Kind of like what makes it look really polished or not.
So in this case scenario do you use stock photography versus you go out and you do a custom photo shoot? The number of visual assets.
The content and visual assets is something that sometimes people forget, that makes the site look really rich.
Video: Are you gonna shoot video? And you might need to price that out.
And is gonna be an industrial shoot, meaning cheap and fast with SLR, or do you wanna do a much more fancy kind of video? And how much editing and post production you're gonna have.
Illustration: Is there gonna be custom illustration or stock? Iconography: Are you gonna buy stock icons or are you gonna design custom icons for this brand? These are things that take time, and that take considerable portion of the budget.
Copywriting: That's actually the number one issue that I think most people have a hard time with.
Not because of how difficult it might be.
NICOLE: I think it get's discounted a lot.
JOSE: It's gets discounted and the designer might say: "The client can put in the copy.
" You have to either contractually remove it, which I use to, but the problem with that is then the client will delay so long in putting in the copy that the ability to QA and do a final release of the site might be such a large gap that you lose money while you're sitting there; While the whole team is sitting there.
So I know it's my turn to talk about motion, but I want to spend a half second here and talk about this a little bit because we're doing more digital projects.
I'm learning about how to manage these things, and to take account of this.
Just remember to pay attention to this content slide that we just showed you.
The stock vs.
custom and you might think: "Okay, I'm gonna build out the site and it's all gonna be stock photos.
Okay, it's gonna be reasonable to buy at Shutterstock or iStock or something like that.
" But what you don't account for is how much time you have to spend to search for the stock and then you didn't account for that.
So I'm gonna just throw out a little warning for you guys.
Versus talking about stock in general to say: "We will bill you the cost of the stock, plus a small mark up, let's say 15%, plus I'm gonna block out an amount of time.
" So I estimate it's going to take me about 6 hours to find stock.
What people don't realize is that we can find really great stock photography for not a lot of money but you have to filter out thousands of images.
And so what they see is the end result of that filter.
Right? And you don't account for that.
So at a different episode I'm gonna do on my own: How to manage a website and a digital project for smaller size practices.
Anyways, let's go on to motion graphics.
To me I consider this part, the finishes, the look and the feel.
Okay, because a lot of things can be done here that affect the cost.
Is it flat? This relates back to the style.
Meaning: Is it graphic, not a lot of shading, flat colors, okay? JOSE: Is that because it's cheaper? Would it be cheaper to animate, yeah? CHRIS: It's cheaper.
Yeah, because I can download these things.
I can draw them.
I don't need a specialist to do all these things.
I can build everything in Illustrator and use after effects to animate everything, and they're beautiful.
JOSE: I always like flat in the web's realm.
CHRIS: Well, it's still very trendy right now.
JOSE: It's very trendy, but I liked it because it was easy to do.
CHRIS: It's easy to do.
And it's really clean.
It's really clean and a lot of people like that aesthetic.
On the opposite end of that is: Is it photoreal? Because you will pay for photoreal.
Okay, there's a level when the human eye can't distinguish whether or not it's CG created, like a computer generated image or if it's real.
That little extra bit of polish, you spend a lot of time and a lot of money.
It's difficult to do that these days.
Anyways, so the other things can be: The story is told, but they want to do stop motion.
And you guys know.
Stop motion is a very labor intensive thing.
I think it took over 3 years for Laika house to do the Box Trolls.
Because they have to literally change every component every frame.
JOSE: But they make Grommet and-- CHRIS: Wallace and Gromit? No, that's a different studio.
But anyways, are there simulations that you have to run.
Like particle simulations.
Are you gonna have to show something--Is there gonna be a destructive thing? Like is the house gonna blow up? Those simulations require a lot of processing power and you need specialists to do that.
Or is it a hybrid approach which is generally more of the case.
it's not one particular approach, it's a couple of these things.
CHRIS: Okay? So, last thing we're gonna talk about is time.
And time we share a slide because it's the same no matter what you're doing.
Whatever field you're in.
Time: It's gonna look something like this.
So there's a line here.
So in the middle is the perfect balance, right? So on the left, it's a rush job.
They need it yesterday, and you have to work weekends, long hours, and you have to ramp up the team and you have to kind of build of for that.
It's gonna cost more.
So if you don't have time it's gonna cost you more money.
JOSE: Yeah, I mean the big thing is: Do you want it fast, good or cheap? Speed, quality or cost.
You choose two of those.
You can't choose all 3.
And so sometimes the clients will say: "Deliver it whenever you want.
Just fit it within your schedule," And sometimes there are cost savings there, but I wanna warn you about this, too.
Those projects with an undefined timeline can drag on and you'll soon realize you're spending a lot of hours working on something.
JOSE: So those are all really big factors.
So to wrap up, let's use the dorktionary as our final thoughts.
So let's just bullet, like run and gun the definitions.
CHRIS: So #Dorktionary guys.
Tell us if you like the title.
Okay, so here are the terms we used today.
JOSE: So bid, which is actually more around the estimation of time and money.
CHRIS: Time and money.
JOSE: Proposal, which is a larger aggregate of having time, money, approach, and examples of your work, and of who you are as a vendor, as an agency.
CHRIS: It's a more corporate document.
It does do a little selling and remember it's for a lot of different stakeholders to look at.
So it needs to tell your story and your approach.
JOSE: It's a narrative, too.
Let me talk about the pitch.
The pitch requires you to do creative work and sometimes you get a little bit of money, sometimes you get a lot.
But more often than not, at least in the motion world, you get zero dollars.
But it's worth it if the price tag and the profit is there.
JOSE: And you can get paid to pitch.
I've gotten paid to pitch.
CHRIS: I have too.
JOSE: So contract is really, ultimately the agreement between you and the client as to-- CHRIS: It's formalizing it.
JOSE: Formalizing what you did in the proposal or in the pitch or in the bid.
SOW is what we use, called a statement of work.
And MSA is a master services agreement.
I'll put a link below to our contracts episode which walks you through an SOW and-- CHRIS: And the 'PIMP-CIPAL' is a principal of an agency that kills it like a pimp.
JOSE: Yes, and that's what you do.
You're basically pimping and hoeing resources.
(laughter) JOSE: You are! If you're an agency principal, you are a pimp.
CHRIS: We get, we get it.
We get it! JOSE: Okay.
If you need any more help, post--Go ahead, Chris.
CHRIS: We need your help actually to post something from this episode on twitter or Instagram.
The hashtag is #TheProcess and you can mention @theSkoolRocks JOSE: Look I'll sweeten it, I'll sweeten it.
CHRIS: Hold on.
We wanna do this because people that find value in what we do always wonder why our audience is bigger because we need your help in getting the word out there.
Share it, post it.
Let's wrap it up, Jose.
JOSE: Well, I'm gonna say this, real quick.
We'll choose one--We got the new Skool stickers--We'll choose one person.
CHRIS: You want an oreo cookie? A giant cookie? JOSE: We'll send you a pack of stickers.
A few stickers.
I'm gonna choose one person out of all the people that post to send them some stickers.
CHRIS: #PIMPCIPAL? How are you gonna find-- NICOLE: #TheProcess JOSE: Oh #TheProcess CHRIS: That makes sense.
JOSE: Using #TheProcess on Instagram or on Twitter or on Facebook, we'll find one person and give this to you.
NICOLE: You can also post any comments or questions down in this episode in the.
CHRIS: Comments section.
JOSE: Comments below, and share the damn thing, and like it, and all those kind of things.
We've learned a bunch of things in the last, I don't know, 2 months of producing the show with Boyce's help.
JOSE: It feels like 5 years.
CHRIS: Getting structure and I think this is the end result of some of that.
Hopefully, you guys like the format the way we're doing things now.
We're trying to be much more succinct, lucid.
But, having a good time.
JOSE: But we're also still trying to keep it light.
CHRIS AND JOSE: Keep it liiiiiiiight.
CHRIS: Alright, whatever.
JOSE: Keep it pimpcipal.
CHRIS: Alright, it's embarrassing.
When we embarrass Nicole I think we're doing a good job.
Her nervousness like you said, like she's her grandma.
If we make her nervous, we're doing the right things.
Guys, Thanks so much! See you next time.
And we'll be back.
(laughter) I don't have an ending.
See you next time you guys! JOSE: Why do you need an ending? There you go that's a good ending.
(clapping) (laughter) CHRIS: You didn't get my David Letterman thing! [inaudible converstaion].